And then I saw someone's silly email about "I should be able to say <bleep> because I am an American and I have free speech"

And the word "free" in that context suddenly meant "without paying" and that led to:

-------------
PERVERSE IDEA

"The price of free speech is $25"
---------------------------------

Now, don't misunderstand me, I don't mean that for $25 you would be un-bleeped. You would still be bleeped and gagged and muted as appropriate so that the reader had control over what they read (I believe in Freedom of Reading first, and Freedom of Typing second. Two freedoms with relative priority.)

I just mean that a language rating of X and above would be permanently gagged, unless it were a Golden Soul.

========
Isn't that sick?!

The people who would be affected are likely the people who don't have $25 in the first place. But I see this as probably a good thing. A foul-mouthed person without a credit card probably *should* be weeded out of the system, don't you think?

It just appeals to me on SO many levels.

=======

Anyway, you may now begin spreading this rumour, which will most likely never come to pass. But perhaps its rumour value will have a certain positive reinforcement effect anyway.

Aside from the hostile reactions to this post, of course

[you just get sillier and sillier, don't you? You "put your foot down" by refusing to play a game you don't enjoy.

This is, more or less, how we place our economic votes in a free capitalist society.

We don't go to Barnes & Noble and say: "You MUST charge under $1 for the latest Harry Potter book."

If you think it is too expensive, you just *don't buy it*. THAT is your right as a free consumer.

Don't confuse your *rights* with your *wishes*.

Unfortunately, that goes for me, too -s]

I remember you saying previously(maybe a few months ago, i dunno) that "I don't plan on removing privelages from non GS's, but plan to only add privelages to those with GS's" (ok my grammer was probably wrong, but you get the idea). So far you have taken away "privilages" i.e. the /monster command. I'm not saying cussing is a "privilage" by any means. But it seems like you are slooooowly making this game almost manditory to pay for a GS. And as stated above, most people who play are either to young for a credit card, or don't have the money(me for one)(but I'll probably find some way to buy one eventually =P ). Anyways, just some food for thought.

-Weasle
*everything is possible except skiing through revolving doors*

[good point, but when it comes down to my having to shut off the whole system, or add more GS perks... well, I think you benefit as a whole by not having the system get shut down.

What I *want* to do, and what my own economic situation encourages me to do, are separate things. -s]

[well, when I say "X or above" I am waving my hands a bit. I don't know exactly where the limit should be set. But no sense having a hair trigger. I want you to have a chance to see the yellow light (R?) and slow down. Coz once you run the red light, you're stuck.

But you may be right, a lower limit might make more sense.

-s]

*hey looky at me! I gotta XXX! I'm porn star!*

I dun wanna think about it >.O

swearing, bad! SWEARING, BAD!

Not that I don't swear when I skate... but I can't help it. its like... you never learn to swear until you learn to skateboard... not that I mean it. I wanna stop... HELP! argh! the bad words! God, forgive me!

This game is an alpha version still (lets even state the following and even more not mentioned would apply if it were a beta).

So you're programming a game on your own in which you want to hopefully one day sell/get donations for a profit (don't try to say break even as you also need money to live) when completed. You don't have it completed, don't have all the things you/others would/want implemented, don't have it encrypted and/or properly set to prevent major hacking, still have bugs, balance is still off, etc.

Also now for an alpha, you start charging GS's to keep playing without nags, you start taking out features, you add registry entries into the OS without having a complete uninstaller to take out the unwanted and uneeded keys if the game were to be removed by people who just don't want to play it anymore and have stupid unwanted registry remnants, you add a file to the OS's dir that contains a non-proper functioning extension, etc.

If this is your only job (creating the games), then you should first work on getting all the features in during alpha and beta. And then in the final stages for beta work on the hacking/encryption properly. Then when the game is ready, if you offer it up as shareware or as a buy then do so as a perhaps limited version/demo, and then allow for the sale of a completed game to get a golden soul to implement all of the features.

If you have no revenue to have a BB, or this BB's advertisement does not cover the costs, then the options for you are: close it, get a job to cover it until your game(s) is sellable and profitable enough to keep it, go to a free hosting board, look for real investors to help finance the proper completion of the game (perhaps hire people to help), etc.

An alpha is exactly what it is. An uncompleted and buggy program that is tested to implement and/or correct those, and for free (whether you want to open it to the whole public or not is up to you). And no one should ever have to be nagged or pay for that.

Beta is the same thing.

And as for the foul language thingy, it's getting more common place every day in music, TV, radio, etc (whether this is a good thing or not is each individuals opinion). The words are basically just that... words. The only ones really getting offended are old timers who didn't grow up with them being used as casually, or ones who don't move with the times. In a few more years (generations) the words will be irrelevant and treated as nothing major and to the future generations will not be perceived as overly offensive as "some" seem to perceive them now.

quote:

---

Not that I don't swear when I skate... but I can't help it. its like... you never learn to swear until you learn to skateboard... not that I mean it. I wanna stop... HELP! argh! the bad words! God, forgive me!

---

Now that I have my license and can drive by myself, I find myself cursing at a loooooot of people on the road! "What the **** are you doing, you **** **** *****************!!!!"

lol

No problem, but why would I waste my time on a simple 2D outdated style game. I work on more extensive Graphics and apps that pays very well that I wouldn't waste my time to design an outdated type game (doesn't mean I don't like playing them once in a while if they got some substance).

This game should have been out of alpha stage over a year ago. Anyone with half-assed VB programming could run off a 2D SP/MP game of this type with the game scripting design editor included in about 6 months doing about 6-8 hrs, 5 days a week, at it's close to final beta stage, minimum.

And exactly what I did was gave feedback to an announcement that is just a repetitive point about someone not having money to support themself, so please pay for a non-finished alpha for the hundredth million time (just a phrase, not really that many but close ). If not I'll have to cut out features in my alpha version that I want you all to test but you have to pay to test it. It's not bad enough with an uneeded nag screen in the game already as all that is needed is the first popup screen to ask for donations and a last one when exiting the game.

And if Dan "had" to get a job you would probably be right that the game would go to just about zilch. And so your point is what? If he had to get a job, then he's in need of money period, and would mean his games are not successful enough to provide income. Not much to discuss around this point. If any one was generally concerned about Dan as opposed to just wanting their own free game, they would support his decision and wish him the best in life even if he closed up shop and thank him for the time spent already.

And where did I say the installer messes up my system? You don't seem to read very well or just don't want to. Please go and re-read. A properly designed game should uninstall all that it installs. I don't need to worry about that but the average Joe does. Cause it's guaranteed that all of the average users start to cry when all of the remnants of programs start to cause your systems to go slow or cause conflicts (and ther's a lot of the my char got marked as a modder posts). So if people have to pay for the garbage, or are testing to help someone out they should have the garbage removed (even if it deals with nag screens and soul ID's), especially the average user and especially unfinished alphas. That's called courtesy and consideration. I could see if it was a finished paid for full version that it "might" stay (even then it still really shouldn't).

Curse words have been used quite abundantly in the past generations. And so you asked a very stupid question. Will the earth stop revolving if they did stop using foul language? The better questions is, has it ever stopped because of using them? No, I didn't think so. Nor will it ever.

And also the words are not curse words unless used in the context of a curse word.

So when your partner is in the romantic mood and asks you if you want to f***, or make love, or have sex, or have a quickie, they all mean the same thing and none should be taken as a curse word or vulgarity. Unless taking it so turns your crank (good or bad).

On the other side when someone says f*** off, it could mean: get out of here - jokingly (non vulgar), you must be joking (non vulgar), get lost (still non vulgar), etc. If that word along with "ain't" can be listed in the dictionary, then it should be able to be used. Actually this would be a very long and somewhat interestingly separate topic, but not here.

1. You talk waaaaaaay too much. Go get a life and some exercise you fat blob.

2. Nobody cares about your 1337 programming and artistic skills. There are people who play cheap 2d games still. I still play 'cheap' 'old' dos games. Some of them are much more playable than the crappy games we have with Windows now.

3. This isn't the topic to hassle Dan about the way he's running his game. There are very FEW features that people without golden souls get. What, you can talk to your pet and see where the monsters all over the map are. Oh yeah and the smiley next to your name gets an open mouth and your name is written in gold. BIG DEAL!!! The people who donate money or buy golden souls are those who can afford it and want to support Dan.

I suggest that what you do now, is, stop playing this 2d game which you have said you don't like, and go play some *cough*Final Fantasy or something.

now, GIT! Scram! Nobody wants you here.

OH and one thing... If you are soooooooo good at writing programs, why do you sit here and complain about Dan's? Go out and write a game and then tell us all where to get it. You know, something you've written BY YOURSELF. Without help from ANYONE else except maybe to write music and draw skins.

Ok? Deal! Go to it.

[the "Auto-Mute On Language-Rating" is, in fact, the reason I added the language rating stuff in the first place When I am comfortable that the ratings are not horribly inaccurate, I will add the mute option.

The nice thing about that is that the reader gets to choose what they see, without limiting the speaker's "free speech".

Unlike the proposal at the top of this topic, which most definitely *would* limit the "free speech" of the speaker.

I feel marginally bad about that since we Americans place such value on "free speech."

But you know, the speech which we, as a society, are trying to not repress is political-speech, or religious-speech, or thoughtful-speech.

Not your ability to cram profanity into someone else's ear.

So, I don't feel TOO bad about stepping a little on that particular freedom. Besides, it's not like WoS is your only opportunity to be foul in life. Go do it somewhere else

-s]

He or She has every right to His or Her opinions, whether I agree with them or not. And S/He expressed those opinions in a more or less non-confrontational tone.

---

As to the word "Alpha" however, I think you have to understand my perverse sense of humour (I hate it when other people say that, so why did I just say that myself? EVERYONE understands perverse senses of humour). "Alpha" traditionally means in-house test. For example, only actual employees of your company get to see the product, and you are allowed to add functionality. "Beta" is traditionally the moment that you declare yourself to be feature-complete and are just looking for bugs.

Most beta tests are also limited to a certain group of testers, whether all in-house or not ("closed beta").

You may choose at some time to go "Open Beta" and let strangers in on the fun.

Then someday you might "Go Golden" and release an actual product, in a box.

And in the game world, traditionally, that was "it." The publisher/developer fires the programming staff and starts a new project, never to return to the original, which retains whatever bugs it originally had. People plunk down their $50 in advance, take it home, find out the game is fun for only a couple hours, stop playing, and start dreaming about the next Final Fantasy release.

---

Enter the Internet.

Suddenly it becomes possible to release an infinite number of versions.

For most publishers, the incentive to fix or upgrade is low since there is generally no revenue in return for offering patches on your web site.

The better publishers, with better games, do see value in fixing/improving the product over time, as they know it improves box sales in general. However, they ONLY provide patches for the product, not full installers (for which you need to buy the box).

Shareware Developers (me, me!) live in a slightly different universe where we allow the consumer to try the product for free and only beg for money after the fact. The method of begging varies (trial period, extended features, extended worlds, donation, etc.)

Most shareware developers are individuals (me, me!) and hence have to do their own marketing, customer support, web site management, and everything else, in addition to coding, painting, etc.

And, in most cases, this is a voluntary decision on the part of the developer, and is in no way deserving of any pity on the part of the consumer. It's what the developer enjoys doing, and we all hope to spend our days doing something that we enjoy.

As to whether or not it is premature to beg for money from WoS, well... WoS is an experiment in progress. It certainly isn't really an Alpha Test at this point. It's simply a shareware game in the middle of its 61st version.

My tongue is firmly planted in cheek when I call WoS an "Alpha," which is meant as a form of humility, recognizing that WoS is no Final Fantasy or Everquest.

But unlike many shareware games, to this point WoS does *not* require any payment to actually play the game. Payment remains entirely at the option of the player, who makes a personal decision as to whether or not they have ALREADY RECEIVED sufficient enjoyment from the game.

And even then, other circumstances may influence their decision, or inability, to donate to the cause.

There is no rancor on my part towards people who do not, or cannot, donate. (My rancor is reserved only for people who actively attempt to sabotage the enjoyment of others).

I do my synthetic-reality work primarily for my own amusement, and would not even provide an option for donations, except:

1.) I do incur ongoing server costs, and it appeals to me to have the system pay for itself. A goal which was recently achieved through the creation of Golden Souls (and which was not achieved via Voluntary $10 donations).

2.) I would enjoy the option of doing this full time (currently not a realistic goal).

3.) So many people write how happy I have made them and beg me to allow them to show their appreciation.

Well, ok, I made up #3 (though, it's not entirely un-truthful... there are a lot of really generous people out there.)

Anyway, please don't attack User for having a clearly-expressed opinion, even if it did make me cry a little on the inside

So lets get back on topic!

I like Blade Runner's idea, I think that would probably be best. This is what I think (merging BR's ideas with my own)

Rather than a plain 'noBleep' rule, have a 'noBleep=%arg%' rule, where %arg% can be a number (0=g, 1=pg, 2=pg-13 3=m etc.) and that sets what will get the player 'bleeped'. It could also be like BR said an in-game censoring option where you can set the level of language you want to see.

If I made you cry a little inside, appologies.

Well written reply, of course I would respond to some of the points stated but it seems your following of non intelligent supporters (and I'm only refering to the very few non intelligent ones) don't take kindly to anything constructive and on point.

Oh and Shon-Dahre, you seem to prove the point of not understanding much, and if you actually used your brain and read my reply would see that most of your points are wrong and in no way relate to what I said. And hate to burst your "bubble" but I'm in very good shape and perhaps in reality it is you that have the shortcomings you mentioned and feel the need to lash out because of them.

"Some" and only some of the same points for zimzap.

Taboos serve a necessary purpose in all human culture, and those of our languages are no less important.

I also believe that to treat people like immature, stupid little children makes them act like immature, stupid little children!
What happens then? Lots of snerts..

The fact that, as an adult, I can't even express myself how I want to is beginning to bug me somewhat.
I don't have to swear in order to express myself but when two grown adults such as myself and MJ can't even see what we are typing when we are on our own server it begins to put one off staying here.

I'm not necessarily going to leave WoS just because I can't say a rude word, but I AM beginning to find this frustrating as well as these silly, senseless icons on these boards.
I mean, it's not even consistant.
Why censor the others if you are going to leave the purple face? That one is not exactly in accord with smiley happy people crap is it? That sideways thumb is ridiculous and the red smiling face is pointless.
If it weren't for the emotion of anger or rage a whole host of artworks would never have been created.
/a does not mention the obvious totalitarian points.

Am I allowed to say all this or will some immature little pillock come flaming me cos I'm not just agreeing with everything Dan says or does?

User, you have my sympathies. The mediocrity of the masses cannot comprehend the concept of debate, even when it *is* expressed so clearly.
I'm not saying I agree with everything you were saying myself but I do think you made some good points and respect to Dan for his support.

"Stay on topic... Stay on topic..."